Episode 46
· 27:29
You wanna kind of build those relationships to kind of do some co marketing, and the same applies to you personally. If you have friends with hobbies, then you could probably send them a message saying, hey. Do you fancy to go play, football with the game or something? Like, it comes back to life as well. Like, you build friends in life to do things with and have experiences.
Jamie Barton:The same happens in the the content world and business world.
Jack Bridger:Hi, everyone. You're listening to Scaling DevTools, the show that investigates how DevTools go from 0 to 1. I'm joined today by Jamie Barton, who is DevRel at Graphbase, and Graphbase is a real time GraphQL platform. Jamie, it's so great to, chat with you. Thanks for joining.
Jamie Barton:Likewise. Thanks for having me.
Jack Bridger:And, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and about Graphbase?
Jamie Barton:Yeah. Sure. So I'm Jamie. I'm a developer relations slash advocate slash technical writer slash video content creator at Graphbase. And, throughout my career, I've been kind of involved with building websites primarily.
Jamie Barton:I started at a young age with slash, Swishmax, if anyone listening remembers that. So building for the web kind of way back when, going through creating stuff with tables and rounded corners with images. And then, you know, over the last few years, I've really been focusing on, the Jamstack GraphQL. And, yeah, that's that's kind of my story so far.
Jack Bridger:That's awesome. So you've got a lot of slashes in your in your capabilities, and you have been coding a long time. That's awesome.
Jamie Barton:Yeah. It's kind of any anyone that works in DevRel will tell you that, you know, they're they're kind of pull pillar to post on what what to work on, and I'm somebody that just gets involved with everything, and likes to do that. I don't mind that. I'm also happy to just do one thing, but I I like to be involved because I've got a broad set of skills, I think, that can be applied in many areas. And I like to help start ups and businesses grow as well.
Jamie Barton:So whatever I can do to help, I'm happy to kinda pitch in and help where I need it.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. That's really cool. And one of the things that I was really excited to kinda ask you about was all of the video stuff that you've been doing. I mean, I think we spoke off camera that you've probably done more than a 100 videos now on developer content. Yeah.
Jamie Barton:Yeah. So Yeah. This started out many years ago. I kind of started YouTube channel, and it no longer exists, but I started to put out just kind of unboxed videos. And then I started to do kind of small how to's with, like, the iPhone and things like that.
Jamie Barton:But I ended up deleting all of those because they were old and cringey. And I then set about kind of just creating web developer content. I had kind of all of the gear and no idea, of what you know, creating videos and and stuff many, many years ago. And I think I've got some of those videos still on YouTube, but I went back and deleted some. And over the last few years, I've really just been focused on creating content for a specific topic.
Jamie Barton:But I'm looking to kind of, you know, diversify that a little bit over the next year or 2.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. When you say, like, you had, like, all the gear, no idea, versus now when you do have some idea. Like, what do you think what do you think are the biggest, things that you've learned over that time?
Jamie Barton:Yeah. I mean, that's I think everyone's just trying different things and, you know, the I don't think there's one formula that works for everybody. I have a very specific video format or style, you could say, that might not appeal to everybody. And I think now what I've learned myself, and, you know, this is the content that I've been creating. People who comment on the videos and reach out to me on on DMs say, oh, I love the content because it's so short.
Jamie Barton:There's no umms and ahs. It's just to the point, and someone can follow along. And I like that style from a very, a very large website back in my Ruby on Rails days was someone called Ryan Bates, and he created this style that I absolutely love. And I think over the years, I've seen that with John, and Joel at, Egghead. They did a similar kind of style, and that's kind of been some of that's just kind of stuck with me.
Jamie Barton:And I I really prefer myself to kind of watch that content, so I really prefer to create that kind of content. And I think what I've found is that works for my audience, but that might not work for everybody. And anyone that's creating content might not like to create that either. So find you know, I would say if you're looking to do it, find your style, find what works for you for your viewers, and try and, you know, grow that.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. And is there any, like, kind of once you kind of latch onto that and you've got your style, are there any, like, kind of challenges or, like, is is it hard to kinda stick to that and stay in, like, your
Jamie Barton:I don't think so. I think you I think if you have a specific style, it's very easy to just kind of put that on repeat. I think what a lot of people don't do is reuse content, and this is something which I'm guilty of. And just because I find it too, like, marketing or spammy, and that's just I I'll create a video. I'll post about it.
Jamie Barton:I'll tweet about it once, and then I don't recycle that. And, you know, that that's anyone that's in video content creation will say you need to be posting this stuff, you know, 1, 2, 3 times a week or whatever, and you need to make it into a blog post. You need to make it into a, I don't know, TikTok these days. And, you know, trial these different things to reuse that content because that is gonna help the overall larger piece with these different, mediums as well. Not everyone likes to watch videos.
Jamie Barton:I'm just stuck on that because I find them easy and quick to create, but the blog posts do take a little bit longer to do. I started to do it, then I fell off, then I got back on. Now falling off again. So it's just something I need to kind of I personally need to do more of, but I would say anyone that wants to get into that kind of content creation, reuse as much of that content as you can because people find you through all sorts of different ways. And, like I say, not everyone likes video.
Jamie Barton:They might just prefer to read it or say a very short form video on, you know, Instagram Reels, TikTok, etcetera.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. I think that's a really good point about recycling. One thing you mentioned there is that you find it easier to make videos than to write blog posts, which is probably the opposite experience that I've had at least. And so I'm very curious about what your process is for making videos.
Jamie Barton:Yeah. I I I used to feel like that. It was a lot easier to just kind of write something if I was sat on my on my laptop and just write something and get it down. And I still do a little bit of that now, but I still kind of go first with the video when I'm creating content and wanna share it. So my typical process is if I'm using a tool, either with some client work or just personally or whatever, and I find something that others might enjoy, I will take that and isolate that into something where I can teach very, very quickly.
Jamie Barton:And my style of videos isn't showing somebody, hey. This is my platform. I'm gonna walk you through every drop down. It's more about, here's how you do this with that. So it could be how to add authentication in a React context provider or something with a third party tool.
Jamie Barton:It's very specific, but that opens yourself to 100 of different content pieces about that topic because you can reuse that with different providers. And I think a lot of these videos that are are kind of let's follow along and build this with this platform. They go out of date very quickly. But, you know, those are also needed as well. Don't get me wrong.
Jamie Barton:Those videos are needed. But I just think if somebody is wanting to watch content or read content, I think the shorter it is, the more isolated it is, the better because someone could just come in, learn, move on, and they'll come back. They'll they'll come back with these quick tips. No doubt.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. That makes sense. So you're kind of, like, solving people's problem in a video.
Jamie Barton:Yeah. And and and I don't have a formula on, like, what exactly the content should be. I tend to just kind of look on what's happening on Reddit and Discord, seeing what questions people are asking. And once I see the same thing being asked, like, once or twice a month, then I know, okay. There's an opportunity to create some content here that helps those people or helps the next round of people that come in in 6 months' time, and have the same issue.
Jamie Barton:So that's 10 that tends to be how I get video ideas. I don't tend to just, like I say, quit hour long videos. These videos are, like, 6 minutes or thereabouts.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Yeah. That's brilliant. That's brilliant way to do it. So when it comes to just, like, getting the word out there, do you feel like it's better to kind of outsource that to, like well, not outsource, but partner with, like, external creators?
Jamie Barton:Yeah. I think it's great because the you know, all of those content content creators can bring their own ideas and their own style, and that can then often lead to new and wonderful ways that platform can be used. Quite often, I'll be you know, if I'm given a project to a content creator, it's often very biased to something that I've got experience with because I'm in my comfort zone. But when I kinda just say, you know, the idea is yours, you take an idea, you come up with the idea, you create the content, Then you get some amazing results because of that. And I think that's a really nice way to go about it because the content creator feels they have free rein on what they create, and they don't kind of they don't feel bored and kind of restricted on what they can do.
Jamie Barton:They'll they'll often go and play and learn, and they'll enjoy the experience more than they will just kind of following something we've told them to create because they've got 50,000 followers. So I don't I think that approach is is a lot better.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Actually, I feel like you're probably the best person to, like, around to ask about, like, how because I've tried to partner with, like, creators when I've done lots of dev tools before, and, like, it can be quite hard to actually find people that are willing to partner with you, especially if you're quite unknown. What like, how do you go about that as someone that's been on both sides of the table?
Jamie Barton:Yeah. I personally try to build relationships with developers and make friends in the space. So there's certain people that I know that I could reach out to and go, hey. I have this opportunity. Are you available?
Jamie Barton:If they're not, we can find someone that is. And I would say the reason how I'm able to do that or the you know, why I'm able to do that now is just for relationship building. So these podcasts that you're doing, you'll certainly be in people's minds now, with all the conversations you've had. So just kind of keep those alive and and and reach out and make sure that you form relationships with people, and then you'll find it's a lot easier to reach people who you typically couldn't. Like, there's so many large content creators over the over the over my years that I've reached out to who never replied.
Jamie Barton:But now I'm able and that's because they get thousands of DMs. Right? But now I'm able to kind of go through, I have to say, like, a back channel or whatever it is. But, like, I can reach out to a friend that's in connection with that person and get in that way. And I think the more kind of relationships that you build, that becomes easier to do.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Yeah. That's a really
Jamie Barton:like yeah. It's like it's not what you know, it's who you know. Right? Like, that saying, it that's very true here.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. And it's like, it it definitely feels like that partnerships type thing is is such a great growth opportunity, but it's not, like, easy. Like, you can't just send out a load of emails and suddenly line up all these partnerships.
Jamie Barton:Yeah. And I think it the startups that I've joined part you know, the the companies have created partnerships with other, like, like minded startups. Right? Like, there could be a data or a search company and, like, a a warehouse company that deals with date large amounts of data, and you deal with data. You wanna kinda build those relationships to kind of do some co marketing, and the same applies to you personally.
Jamie Barton:You know? If you have friends with hobbies, then you could probably give them you know, send them a message saying, hey. Do you fancy to go play, football with the game or something? Like, it comes back to life as well. Like, you build friends in life to do things with and have experiences.
Jamie Barton:The same happens in the the content world and business world.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. That's a really good point. Yeah. Yeah. Really very, very deep, powerful point there, Jamie.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. And you kind of touched on it a bit, documentation. Documentation is something that everyone finds difficult, and I wondered, like, how video fits into documentation in your mind.
Jamie Barton:Yeah. So documentation is a huge topic, and it's something I love. Every time I join a start up, it's the one thing I somewhat end up spending a bunch of time on because it needs to be right. It needs to be good. Developers need to be able to use it in a way that helps the product grow and, you know, unlocks kind of those new ideas.
Jamie Barton:Videos can be a part of that, and I think the format I was mentioning before with that that is very short form, those can often live inside of documentation. And what I mean by that is if you have a page in your documentation on how to invite your team, then it'd be really nice to have a video that's very specific to inviting your team. But then can you break that down further to making that video just about inviting a single user? Then can you create a video about updating a user's role, or maybe it's removing them or updating their permissions? Like, create these small isolated videos that don't need to be, you know, long, and it doesn't add a lot of overhead when things change in those UIs.
Jamie Barton:It's very easy to go back and rerecord those because you haven't recorded everything else that you were doing, and you've got all of this context. Keep it very isolated. It doesn't matter if people's avatars or names change throughout those videos because they're separate videos. People are more forgiven, I think, when when it's like that. So, yeah, videos can be a part of that, but there's different types of documentation with, tutorials, guides, you know, and everything else, technical documentation as well.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. That's, that makes sense. And where do you kind of, like, start if you're joint just coming into a start up and they don't have any video content? Is there any way, like, rules of fun where you kind of think about getting started?
Jamie Barton:Yeah. It's often the quick starts where look at the user base, see what they're most familiar with in using, what why are people coming to your platform. Are the most, you know, are are is the majority React developers, JavaScript, Next, or Vue, or Svelte, or whatever? I've spent a lot of time in this space. So over time, there's been a shift towards the tools that people use.
Jamie Barton:But now it seems to be very Next. Js focused, and Svelte is another big one. But then there's there's all of these other micro frame frameworks as well. So what I like to do when coming up with kind of content ideas for video is just to look at what people are using already and create content that helps them go further, but also create content that helps new developers as well. And I've been using Next.
Jamie Barton:Js since probably the day it came out. Like, I I think this was, like, 2016, 2017 when GraphQL was just kicking off and Next was a a thing. It just started out. It didn't do too much, but I've been using it since then. And over time, I started to create content about that.
Jamie Barton:And more people will learn about Next, and I could reference them to this video with Next and whatever product I was kind of selling at the time, you could say. And, you know, direct them to that, and that helps them grow with Next, grow in that ecosystem, build relationships in that ecosystem, and as well learn your product and how it fits with with the product and your frameworks that you're used to.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. And then stepping back into, like, the documentation as a whole, what do you think what do you see startups, like, doing right or doing not so right, with documentation?
Jamie Barton:Yeah. I I I don't wanna be I'm not too opinionated with docs other than I think documentation should have a clear starting point. Like, don't make your index page of docs have, like, a dozen CTAs. Like, if somebody is used to using your product, they'll be able to go and find what they're looking for. Typically, an advanced user that's been using your product a long time will probably end up in some advanced guides or the API reference.
Jamie Barton:That tends to be where they spend the majority of their time. They don't need the fluff on getting started because they're in. They've got started. They're in deep. So they want that API reference that's got all of the the raw metal, what goes in, what comes out, etcetera.
Jamie Barton:But I think documentation that is good has a clear starting point, and it's it can be a quick start. Get started with your favorite framework. And I think as popular as Tailwind is now, it's a CSS framework. They even have framework guides. So when you go into their documentation, you can easily install, Tailwind into your existing framework so you forget about kind of everything else.
Jamie Barton:Get back into your bubble and learn how this thing works with what you're used to. And I think documentation that follows that format works very well because people are less overwhelmed. There's less of things for people to think about and get confused about if they're already in their comfort zone. So creating quick starts is a great way to onboard new users, and having examples in the technical side that are cop you know, you can copy and paste them, like API requests or JavaScript functions, that's also very helpful.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. So it's just like reducing the friction to kind of pick something up and get started.
Jamie Barton:Yeah. Yeah.
Jack Bridger:One question, just this is, like, kind of a random question, but I saw it on Twitter today. Boris from Baseline, one of this observability startup, was saying that if you're introducing you shouldn't be introducing new concepts that are, like, very, like, obscure early on in the docs, and especially not, like, inventing new things unless you really have to. I just kind of wondered if you have any thoughts on that.
Jamie Barton:I would agree with that, and that comes from I remember the previous startup. They were trying to call the dashboard something completely different and bizarre, like a cockpit or something. And I'm like, what? They're like, well, yeah. This is the command center, and I'm like, it's just a dashboard.
Jamie Barton:Like, a dashboard is a term that we all know. Let's not call it something else. And I think the same applies to documentation. Like, just just be clear to the point and have less. Like, I think that's probably driven from marketing more than anything because they wanna kind of create these cool words.
Jamie Barton:Like, are you going to Apple website and describe the iPhone? And all of these different we have wonderful ways, but it's documentation. Like, just tell me what I need to know.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. I know I know what you mean. I know what you mean. And what if it's, like, some kind of it is genuinely, like, kind of a new concept, like, I don't know if you're, like, starting a new kind of, like, type like, you're the next docker, and you're, like, you've got this thing that's a bit like a container, but not like a container. And, like Yeah.
Jack Bridger:How how do you think about that sort of stuff?
Jamie Barton:I think for that stuff, you know, there is a there is a place for documentation for your documentation, you could say. And this could be in a format where it's like it's a movement. Like, over the last few years I said last few years. It's probably been the last 5 years there's been a shift towards composable commerce, and that was a turn that really wasn't coined by anybody. I believe the startup that I was working for at the time kind of this because we were talking about this years before, but composable commerce has just been this thing that has evolved.
Jamie Barton:And then now we have Halo and Mac Alliance and there's all these kind of groups of visionaries and advocates of this wider topic that I think there is a place for that because everyone's trying to move the industry in a certain direction. So, yeah, I do agree, you know, you can use certain terms, but if if it's done right, like, there's no point just throwing in a buzzword or a fluffy headline if there's nothing to kinda back it up or kinda push that movement forward.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. That makes sense. That really makes sense.
Jamie Barton:And also don't use those don't use those in your own documentation if you're just trying to fit in. Like, if you don't believe in this stuff or your product has no signs that it works with this, like, don't try to fool developers into thinking that it does just by including a certain term because founders see through that.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Could you dig in and maybe tell us a bit more about, like, any examples around that? Like No. Without the draw you can be very vague on it.
Jamie Barton:Yeah. I can be very vague. Yeah. I I think it's I mean, I've worked in the headless CMS space for the last few years, and before that was the ecommerce space. And a headless space is changed now where if you're a content editor that people come and edit content for their websites or whatever, like, that's what you are.
Jamie Barton:Like, don't try to fool anybody that you have anything more unless you do it. And some companies try to fool you into thinking that they have more control in over the over the size of everything and a larger piece of the pie of what everyone's using. Just don't try and yeah. I'd say just don't fool anyone into thinking that's why people use you. Like, if you are a certain tool I'm not gonna mention names, but, like, if you're a CMS, like, you're a CMS.
Jamie Barton:If you wanna move into a different area, that's great. Try that. Talk to your users. Build on it, which I've worked for CMS that did that. They spoke about they spoke to users like we wanna move into this other area.
Jamie Barton:But I think if you change your marketing to be all in on that and forget about the CMS stuff, it's very confusing because developers who have found you because you were recommended as a CMS now see you as something else. It's it's just very jarring for the end user. So I don't know if that answers your question properly. I'll just say be truthful with your users about who you are. And if you are trying to be something different and something new, that's also good.
Jamie Barton:But just try and do it in a nice way that brings everybody along, then just kind of stop starting because it can feel like it's a completely different company, as well, and people just get confused. So I don't know if that answers your question, but I just be just be truthful with devs.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. It may it's a good answer.
Jamie Barton:Thank you. And I think another thing on that is just be core to what you're doing. And by that, I mean persist your message for as long as you can because if you're changing that frequently, like every quarter, then people will miss that. And people can if you change that very to try and kind of capture more leads or gain more sign ups, then you can be missing all of the people from the previous cohort because you changed your message and they didn't say it. But now you're saying you're something else.
Jamie Barton:Like, just say what you are, be clear, and go from there.
Jack Bridger:That's exactly what, Jason Langsdorf was saying, in a episode recently, and, yeah, I think you're so right. It's a it's a really great point.
Jamie Barton:Yeah. I mean, he's an awesome guy and and and done some amazing things. And, yeah, like, I'm sure he's got more experience in this area than I do, but it seems obvious. Right? Like, just don't change your messaging, like, frequently because not everyone's gonna say it.
Jamie Barton:Not everyone's checking your website every day. Like, you know, people think they are about you know?
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a good point. And you're very humble, Jamie.
Jack Bridger:You've got a ton of experience. So it's great to hear your your points of view on it. Jamie, if there's one one thing to take away from this conversation that every dev tool should be thinking about. What do you think it is?
Jamie Barton:Every dev tool should not forget documentation is part of the product. I'll probably leave it at that.
Jack Bridger:Okay. Amazing. Documentation is part of the product.
Jamie Barton:It is. Develop product managers, CEO, if they all understand the importance of documentation and how that can generate leads and how it can further grow existing users, new users, you know, that that is the that is the truth. It does all of those things, and the sooner people realize that. I think a lot more people realize it now, kind of dev relations and dev advocacy has grown into what it is. Still no one, I think, really understands what what we do, but, you know, that helps that does help the bottom line.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Amazing. And where can people learn more about Jamie and about Graphbase?
Jamie Barton:Yeah. So graphbase, dotcom has, we're in private beta right now where you can sign up, you can play with the product, give us some feedback. That is a real time GraphQL platform that deploys GraphQL APIs at the edge. So if any of that sounds, interesting, then definitely check us out. We allow you to bring all sorts of different data sources into your API, and we'll give you an API endpoint for them all.
Jamie Barton:And I'm really just interested to learn about everyone that's doing this and wants to use this, and have those problems. So hit me up on Twitter. I'm NoTrap, which is Barton backwards. And, yeah, nodding your head like that. Sense.
Jamie Barton:Light bulb. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone every time I say that, who's oh, yeah.
Jamie Barton:Yeah. No trap is passing backwards. I'm on Twitter, GitHub with that handle, and Discord.
Jack Bridger:Amazing. Thanks so much for joining, Jamie, and thanks everyone for listening.
Jamie Barton:Thank you.
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