Episode 104
· 30:27
You have to be paranoid to some extent because the most important thing as a founder is to just stay alive. So eventually I sort of just said, let me do like a one way ticket to San Francisco, and I'm not gonna come back until I have a term sheet. So I went to all of the VC offices, and, they all said no. The main takeaway is to just be there. He declined on the deal, but I think he told Greg, maybe you guys could scoop it up or something.
Rasmus Makwarth:There's just, like, this whole, like, back channel thing going on in San Francisco. 3rd or 4th sentence was, like, we wanna acquire you guys. Like, we think you could be a really good fit. And I was like, that's really interesting, Shay. I I and I really admire your company, but it's just I think it's too late, man.
Rasmus Makwarth:I think we're a week from finalizing this thing. All of a sudden, you're talking to HSBC or some other huge customer who is now using your product. As a founder, you should meet the people that you're about to jump into bed with. Right? We believe so much in product engineering.
Jack Bridger:Hey, everyone. Today's guest is Rasmus Makwarth. In 2017, Rasmus sold his company to Elastic, as in Elasticsearch and after working for them for a while, he is now the founder of bucket which is a b to b focused feature flagging tool and, you know, Rasmus is very successful But I think why this episode is rare and why it's a really interesting one is that Rasmus is also very honest and you can hear in his voice when he tells you some of his experiences selling his first company, about how honesty is being and how some of this stuff is actually pretty painful. It was quite stressful. And I think there's a lot of stuff to learn in there, and I really appreciate Rasmus coming on and, you know, sharing his honest insights.
Jack Bridger:So enjoy the episode.
Rasmus Makwarth:We were building, I think, a really innovative and and great product, but we were also, sort of rookie founders, which sort of led us to not really paying enough attention on how to get upmarket. So we had 100 of SMB customers, but we never really got to the enterprise point, which you really need as a as a as a company. It was just around the time that people really started adopting GitHub. GitHub had come out, like, I think, 4 or 5 years prior, and everybody was using GitHub, of course. And it it was really interesting for the APM error logging use case because, you know, as as a developer, you were building a feature and you were sort of updating your product, deploying the feature, and then something might slow down or break altogether, and you would get an alert in your air logging tool.
Rasmus Makwarth:But why? Like, what caused that error? Like, why is that happening now? Did something change? And on bucket, you could I'm sorry.
Rasmus Makwarth:On Update, which was the name of the company. I'm old bucket now, but Update was the name of the company. And, we had this Git integration so that we could actually tie the error or the performance regression to the engineer that touched the part of the code last. And it was not like a way for you to sort of go like, oh, we should fire this person. Absolutely not.
Rasmus Makwarth:It was just a way for, you know, teams not to spend time on figuring out why this is happening right now, because that's so boring. Like, you just wanna fix it and move on. Right? So we tried to automate that stuff, and it worked quite well. I think it was a very interesting novel idea at the time.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. And I guess Elastic saw what you were doing, and I guess people probably know them more for the search, but they do, like, this ALK stack, right, of, like, just all the logging and searching your logs and stuff. And so they saw that you were, like, gonna fit in really well with what they were doing.
Rasmus Makwarth:Yeah. Totally. We had, I think, 2 things going for us in in in relation to sort of the Elastic Synergy. Like, they were massive in terms of the logging use case because people were just installed the ELK Stack, as you said, and feed logs to Elasticsearch. But they didn't really know much about the performance inside of the application.
Rasmus Makwarth:You know, how long were people actually waiting for an entire page to load in the application, that sort of stuff. And observability was sort of on the rise at that time. Like, you wanted to consolidate logs and application metrics, so that, you know, when when, one of the 3 was sort of spiking, you could correlate it with the other 3, and you could sort of get to a resolution faster potentially. So observability was happening and Elastic wanted to be part of it because they only sort of had the login use case, a little bit about the server metrics, but they didn't have anything in the application layer. And they also wanted to get from open source to being a cloud vendor, as well as open source.
Rasmus Makwarth:Like they wanted to have a elastic cloud offering where you could just go in and spin up a cluster with Elasticsearch and get all this stuff out of the gate, right, like a proper SaaS provider. And we were a SaaS company, and they didn't have many SaaS people in the company. So that was that was the other part of the synergy.
Jack Bridger:Okay. Quick announcement. WorkOS are hosting a one day conference dedicated to enterprise software. It's called the Enterprise Ready Conf, and it's taking place on October 30th in San Francisco. They have got the founder and CEO of Vanta, Christina, speaking, as well as the head of product for ChatGPT.
Jack Bridger:Yes. ChatGPT, Brit. So if you've got questions for them, go along. And they've got their founder of Work OS, of course, Michael Greenwich, who's been on the show twice. And you know how much he knows about enterprise software.
Jack Bridger:So if you're kind of thinking about, you know, selling enterprise software or you already do it, you should definitely check out this conference. Go to enterprise hyphen ready.com or click the link in the show notes. Yeah. So they were thinking like you're gonna really help their product. That that was like the kind of driving force.
Rasmus Makwarth:Yeah. Yeah. It was it was an interesting story how it came about, but I can dive into it if you want to. But it was Yeah. It was, it was, in terms of the the the the product offering that they wanted to get to, it was it was so clear that they needed to have, like all 3, like get into observability and also have that that cloud offering.
Rasmus Makwarth:And they they they needed help from from outside to get to to the SaaS type experience. Like, that's really, like, an app experience where it's, like, almost turnkey. So, yeah, that that was that was a big part of why they why they why they called us. But yeah. No.
Rasmus Makwarth:I can I can I can talk about how how it happened if you
Jack Bridger:Yeah? Yeah. I'd love to hear. Yeah. Yeah.
Rasmus Makwarth:I'm getting all I'm getting, like, stress anxiety just thinking about it because it was a very stressful period.
Jack Bridger:You don't have to.
Rasmus Makwarth:No. No. It's alright. It's alright. I've had time to sort of come around.
Rasmus Makwarth:Like, it's been a while now. Right? But sometimes it sounds like there's amazing, you know, swift thing that just happened out of the blue. And I guess they also kinda do these acquisitions, but it was it was very, yeah, it was very stressful. Anyway, I was in, I was I was doing I was about to do, another round of funding for for Upbeat.
Rasmus Makwarth:We had done a few rounds already, and now we're getting into the third one. And the 3rd first two has been kind of easy for us because we had some great angels, like the co founder of Instagram, co founder of Facebook, CTO of Spotify. Like there were some great angels and at the time that meant a lot. Like these days, I guess it's more common, but back then it meant a lot. And we, we therefore also raised like an institutional round really swiftly after.
Rasmus Makwarth:And now we're then doing the the follow-up round. And, because it had been sort of easy based off those angels and, space, initially, I I we we probably took it lighter than we should have. Like, we thought it would be easier. So I went to all of the VC offices and, they all said no, because we had the low ACV, like the the average account size of our accounts was just quite low because we had so many startup SMB customers. We had a lot of them, but we didn't have anyone who sort of had really grown with us and was paying us, you know, 50 ks a year or something like that.
Rasmus Makwarth:Like we hadn't gotten to that point. And with that, it was just very hard for them to make a VC case out of it, understandably. But we were yeah. We weren't really we were, yeah, rookie founders and we didn't we didn't know what we were doing to some extent. So the so the fundraising became harder and harder, and I spent a lot of time speaking to VCs and just hustling.
Rasmus Makwarth:I the team was in in Europe back then. I'm from Europe. But I I I and I went back and forth to do these meetings in person. It it was just kind of exhausting with the jet lag and all that stuff. So eventually, I sort of just said, like, let me do like a one way ticket to San Francisco, and I'm not gonna come back until I have a term sheet.
Rasmus Makwarth:Like, let me just go get this thing fixed. Right? So I was just on the ground hustling for weeks months. And, finally, we got to a point where we had a term sheet from Battery and Crandum, and and it was an okay round. It was not the best round, but it wasn't.
Rasmus Makwarth:It was around, and, we were we were happy with it. And good good VCs, good partners, like, it was it was okay. But as part of just speaking to so many VCs, I, I also bumped into a bunch of random people. And you really have to, you know, just focus. So many people want to speak with you.
Rasmus Makwarth:Like, Gartner calls you up and wants to do a research call in terms of their quadrants or whatever. It's not important. Like you have to say no to these things when you're not anywhere near like the Gartner quadrant. Right? So there's but there's a lot of inbound stuff.
Rasmus Makwarth:And, I remember being, you know, running around doing these VC meetings. And a guy from Elastic called Greg, a great guy, I learned later, but, he was a biz dev guy at Elastic, and he sort of had this vague email, like, could we just grab coffee? I'm interested in the space or something. And he was like, okay. Sure.
Rasmus Makwarth:Okay. We made a blue bottle, but I was really like, I I don't have time for this. Like, I we're running out of runway. I need some money. I need to make sure that my team is good and all that.
Rasmus Makwarth:Right? So we spent, like, 30 minutes in a blue bottle, and, and I didn't really feel like there was any, you know, value to it. Like, he he sort of asked some questions. I did some, you know, storytelling about why we existed, and then he sort of disappeared. And I think we signed the term sheet like a week after, and got into actually finalizing the papers, which in my experience is always like a 4, 6 week period of just talking to lawyers and whatnot.
Rasmus Makwarth:Right. So we were at that stage really happy that we were getting this this done. Right? And, and then Greg calls us and says, do do can you and your cofounder jump on a call with Shay, who's the CEO and and and and founder of of Elastic? And you're like, yeah.
Rasmus Makwarth:Sure. But, you know, we're now we're really like, we've just spent so much time fundraising, and we wanted to get back to customers and building product. Like, because it's such a distraction, like a huge distraction doing fundraising. Also just mentally draining. Right?
Rasmus Makwarth:So we were that we were just like we just crossed the finish line to some extent. We really just wanted to get back to building and getting ready for our series a. But we jumped on the call, and Shai was just wonderful. Like, he he's, he's a really nice guy, and he's an engineer, and he's really into good products. And, like, we had a really good conversation and spoke for more than an hour and gave him a bit of demo.
Rasmus Makwarth:And we didn't really know what it was all about, but we could sort of sense that, you know, acquisition is potentially part of this, but it could also be some sort of, hey, you guys wanna integrate with us or something, you know, much less important. So we continue with the with the finalizing the paperwork, and our investors were happy. We were getting this done, getting back to, you know, getting more customers. But then Greg, 2 weeks later, called me again and said, I we're almost done at this point. Like, really close.
Rasmus Makwarth:And he said, can you come can you come down to Mountain View? I want you to meet Shai. He was like Yeah. I'm at SF. Like, that's an hour train ride
Jack Bridger:both ways.
Rasmus Makwarth:Right? And I don't have time for this, Greg. I really don't. You guys need to just stop calling me because I'm trying to focus on building my business here. But I then went down to Mountain View, and Greg was in the reception, and and he sort of guided me into this meeting room where where Shay was sitting.
Rasmus Makwarth:And and he, he said hello, of course, but but, like, 3rd or 4th sentence was like, we wanna acquire you guys. Like, we think you could be a really good fit to what we do. And I was like, that that's really interesting, Shay. I I and I really admire your company, but it's just I think it's too late, man. I think I we're we're weak from finalizing this thing.
Rasmus Makwarth:Everybody's happy now. I work my ass. I'm exhausted. Like, and I in the back of my mind, I was also thinking, what if they just wanna, you know, what if they're saying this to 10 other companies? You know?
Rasmus Makwarth:I could be spending so much time with them, and they end up buying another company in the same space. And I've just wrecked the deal with the VCs potentially. Mhmm. And I spent Yeah. And I wasted a lot of other time.
Rasmus Makwarth:Right? And time is just so important in founder of Startup Land. But I guess we took a leap of faith, and we really liked Jai and Elastic. We were huge fans of Elastic, of course. So, so we said, yeah.
Rasmus Makwarth:And, and and we're luckily in a somewhat decent negotiation negotiation position because we had an alternative. Like, we could we could really just say no. And by the way, I learned later that they knew we weren't just bluffing because I think maybe this is the most interesting part, actually. Like, the way it all came about, I think, was that Elastic internally had thought, like, we want to get into the observability space. We do logging, but we don't do application layer.
Rasmus Makwarth:Who does this? Right? That we could buy. And Greg, their biz dev guy, he, of course, knows a lot of VCs. And I think the story is that I, at one point, pitched a GP at Charles River Ventures called Max, And he declined on the deal because of the ACV size and all that stuff.
Rasmus Makwarth:But I think he told Greg, like, this product is good. Rasmus seems cool too, I guess.
Jack Bridger:It's the key factor.
Rasmus Makwarth:But we're we're not doing the deal because it's too early for us. So, you know, maybe you guys could scoop it up or something. So when they when when we set us said, okay, let's talk more with Elastic. We said, we only have a few days to get this done. Like, if you really wanna do this, like, we need like an offer and a little bit 10.
Rasmus Makwarth:We need all that stuff really fast. And and, yeah, 2 days later, they came with, like, an offer. And finally funny funnily enough, it was like the the offer was so close to the valuation that we've been going around town telling all VCs. So, like, there's just like this whole, like, back channel thing going on in San Francisco, of course, where everybody is sort of speaking to each other, and I don't know. And I'm trying to game I'm trying to game it, you know, like talking like, we can get a higher valuation over here, but they all know, of course, what's what the valuation is.
Rasmus Makwarth:I think they talk a lot. But we were in a good negotiation position as I mentioned because we had an alternative, so we could bump up the value somewhat and and also give a good deal to the employees. So we ended up doing it, but it was, it was so stressful because at the time, we I I really thought that I could potentially wreck the whole thing, like the relationship with the new VCs, but also not get acquired because they were just they were just gonna jerk me around.
Jack Bridger:Mhmm.
Rasmus Makwarth:And you have to be paranoid paranoid to some extent because, you know, it's it's your business. Right? You just have to like the most important thing as a founder is to just stay alive. And I was sort of risking all of that.
Jack Bridger:Yeah.
Rasmus Makwarth:So, yeah, that was very stressful, but in the end, it worked out. And the whole team, came with, everyone except 1, and and they all stay with Elastic for a long time. And some of them are still there now, a long, long time after. So it turned out well. I guess the the main takeaway is to just be there.
Rasmus Makwarth:Right? Like, if I hadn't met if I haven't pitched CRV, then Max wouldn't have told Greg. Greg wouldn't have told Shai. I I I guess you just have to be out there.
Jack Bridger:In specifically in San Francisco?
Rasmus Makwarth:Yeah. At least back then. I think nowadays, it's different. Back then, it felt like you had to do these meetings in person. Otherwise, you were sort of not serious.
Rasmus Makwarth:I think these days, you can do most over Zoom, and it's okay. It doesn't really give you a sense of not being serious or, you know, and maybe you're just responsible because you're not flying around. Like, I I think there's a lot of things that have changed for the better, probably. Right? And there's also many more VCs and and in Europe that can help.
Rasmus Makwarth:But back then, it was very much as if for nowhere.
Jack Bridger:So just get on, like but I guess now, like, if you're when you're fundraising with bucket, like, you would you go out to SF? Like, it's like your
Rasmus Makwarth:Yeah. I did go to SF, but, I also did a bunch of meetings with SF investors just over Zoom, and it was just as it was just as fine. Like Yeah. And we ended up doing we ended up doing the doing our latest round of funding with a European fund. So it didn't actually materialize, but it wasn't for that reason at all.
Jack Bridger:Yeah.
Rasmus Makwarth:We just had a really good fit here, but I think it it's it's totally viable to do it over Zoom. But as a founder, you should meet the people that you're about to jump into bed with. Right? Because you really are. Like, you're getting married to these people and you might be working with them for 10 years.
Rasmus Makwarth:So for your sake, I would talk to them and spend time with them. You know? But But you can do that after you get a term sheet. Like you or you can do it close to the term sheet. Like all of the pitching and all of the stuff, you don't have to run around, booking flights.
Rasmus Makwarth:And, you know, I think you can do a lot of that stuff on Zoom. I think you will still have higher chance to come off as the person you are in person. That still just works better. But I don't think that you're not serious because you're talking over Zoom. Like that that that has been sort of normalized, I think.
Rasmus Makwarth:But, yeah, you should spend time with them. Like, man, you have a board and then that's just the people you work with for, you know, and you see them more than your family, some of them, or at least you're like, they will be they will be with you, for a long time. Right? So, yeah, I can't stress that enough. Spend time with the people you you make, deals with.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Maybe this
Rasmus Makwarth:is kind
Jack Bridger:of a tangent we weren't thinking about, but would, like, people often say, like, spend time, like, get the right VCs and stuff. And, like, what what should people actually be looking for?
Rasmus Makwarth:Yeah. And it's also kinda bullshit because you have to just stay alive. Right? And sometimes the VC that will give you a term sheet is not the favorite VC in your book. Right?
Rasmus Makwarth:Maybe you have some others who you preferred that passed on you, and you should still do the deal. Like, you should still, stay alive. I think that's the name of the game. Right? So it sounds so easy to just spend time together.
Rasmus Makwarth:I would say though, if it if if like, signing a term sheet with someone that you've never spent a day with, I think it's kinda crazy still. I mean, it doesn't have you you don't have to get along. Like, you just have to make sure that you're both pragmatic, and you're, like, good people at you know? Then it's okay that you don't become buddies. Like, that's not at all what this is about, but it has to be someone that you can talk with and also share, like, when things are going bad.
Rasmus Makwarth:And, like, there has to be some trust there. Otherwise, it's not gonna go well. But you also have to stay alive. So it's a very hard balance.
Jack Bridger:What kind of things did you learn when you were with Elastic?
Rasmus Makwarth:Yeah. So you you mentioned the Elk Stack earlier, which was, the k in Elk is Kibana, which is like their the the UI for Elasticsearch. Like that would that's how people were consuming the logs. Right? And I remember Kibana at the time when we got acquired, it was just like pink and black and a really slow application, like really bad UX.
Rasmus Makwarth:And one of the things that we had going for us was was that we were so much better than the incumbents in the space, like AppDynamics and New Relic. And like we had some things going for us where we were just like super easy to get going with and integrate with Git, as I mentioned, and did a bunch of things that were just, like, so nice from a product perspective. And all of a sudden, you now had to work with this thing that was just, like, the opposite. It's getting it's gotten much better, but back then, it wasn't good. And that was really demotivating, like, okay, all of this, our baby and, you know, all of the sweat and tears to build this product is just gonna go into this thing.
Rasmus Makwarth:So So you just have so that was a bummer. But, of course, then the flip side is all of a sudden you're talking to HSBC or some other huge customer who is now using your product, on tons of data with tons of, you know, people relying on it. Right? And that's very exciting. So there are good and bad things.
Rasmus Makwarth:On the other side, I learned a ton in terms of enterprise sales, and how an organization of a 1000 people is working. Like, I was all I was a I was a product owner for what became Elastic Observability. So first, OP became Elastic APM, and then later, we we transformed it all into Elastic Observability. And I was sort of the PO for for for that product. And I was also at the leadership, extended leadership team at Elastic, where we got together every quarter and talked about the biggest fires in the company at that given time, and how we could fix it like cross functions.
Rasmus Makwarth:And you just you just learn so much, like, getting into a company of that size, with all of the problems that come with it. Like, at that point, we were, like, hiring 80 people a month. Like, how do you integrate those people into the culture? And how do you make everybody productive and happy? And I so it was very different, maybe to answer your question, but it was also very inspiring.
Rasmus Makwarth:And I learned a ton. That was outside of the stuff that I that I already knew about. Like, I'm I'm good product. I know strategy. I know these things, but, you know, how to do it at scale with enterprises and how to scale an organization that I had no experience with.
Rasmus Makwarth:So, I also think our our story was quite good. I've heard other stories that weren't as good, but I think one of the reasons we got fortunate with Elastic, coming for us was because it was such a tech led company. Mhmm. Like, the CEO, Shai, was literally the first engineer on Elasticsearch, the open source project. Right?
Rasmus Makwarth:That it came from him. And now he was at the top of this huge company, but he was still a product guy, like deep down and a technical guy. And that we just vibe really nicely with people like him. So so from that point of view, it was a really good experience, but I think it could've been a very different experience if we had been picked up by another company.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. And they were just, like, sales led or that sort of thing.
Rasmus Makwarth:Yeah. Exactly. At Elastic, you can actually make, investments that are huge. Like and don't think about the next quarter. Like, you can actually but it was put it this was pre IPO.
Rasmus Makwarth:It actually went on to IPO, so it might be different now. Right? Companies change, and they have these different modes. But at that time, we could still make big bets, which was very cool.
Jack Bridger:One of the things that you mentioned, was about b to b and kind of going on market, And it seems to be that that's a big theme with bucket as well.
Rasmus Makwarth:So in terms of ACV and coming from feature flagging, which is the category bucket is in, like, we do feature flagging for b to b. What is interesting about that, I think, is the first concept of a feature from a technical point of view is when you flag it in your code base. Like, you're about to release a new feature, and then you wrap it in a feature flagging key, which can sort of control with this key, you can control who have who has access to this to this feature. Right? But if you if you sort of take that feature that you've now made into us, like, sort of structured item, like an object.
Rasmus Makwarth:Right? That's that's useful for so many other functions in the company. Because what is who has access to this feature? Just like basic question, like who has access to it? That's sometimes hard to know.
Rasmus Makwarth:And in B2B, you wanna look at the account level, not the user level. So there's a lot of B2B stuff there where you just wanna make sure that you know who actually has access to this feature. But more importantly, who's using it? And, where are they on the usage curve? Did they just try it out, or did they truly adopt it?
Rasmus Makwarth:Did they maybe regress from it? What about from a qualitative point of view? Are they happy with it? Or are they using it because they have to to get their job done. But they don't really like using it, so they're sort of looking for an alternative, maybe another vendor.
Rasmus Makwarth:And then if the, for instance, if the adoption is low, the PMM team will then need to sort of figure out how they can make those people who are unaware of the feature aware of the feature. And if the satisfaction is low, then there's a high burden on support for that feature. Right? Because they get asked a bunch of questions because maybe the feature is confusing or whatnot.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. So you're kind of just helping people with, like, not just the kind of initial feature testing and sort of, like, it's the whole rollout and, like, making use of it, understanding who's using it,
Rasmus Makwarth:kind
Jack Bridger:of sending that data elsewhere.
Rasmus Makwarth:And that that's the new thing. Like, we believe so much in product engineering. Like, engineers and designers are great problem solvers. You just need to get them the customer feedback. And today, in most organizations, we have, you know, customer success or support or PMs in between that sort of owns the post deployment feature evaluation, if you like.
Rasmus Makwarth:And it sometimes takes a long time. And in some organizations, it doesn't happen at all. And then that means that the engineers release the feature. They sort of emoji celebrate because they ticked off the backlog item and they got it out there. Right?
Rasmus Makwarth:And then they move on to the next thing. But it really should be, like, more agile in the sense that you've loaded up all this feature information in your in your head right now. You've just released it to the customers. Now the customers are seeing this feature for the first time, and that's where we drop attention. Right?
Rasmus Makwarth:Like, it's kinda crazy. Like, instantly or as rapidly as possible, you should be getting some initial reactions to that feature.
Jack Bridger:If there's one takeaway for founders listening, DevTools founders, what would it be?
Rasmus Makwarth:Well, solve problems. I think, that's certainly something that I've been better at understanding. And you also did a great episode on it with, I believe, Adam was his Adam's name. Yeah. Yeah.
Rasmus Makwarth:Yeah. It was a great episode. Thank you for doing that. So just solve problems and and stay on the problem and and keep focus, I think, is very important.
Jack Bridger:Amazing. And then the other question, which one of our audience asked us to ask is, what dev tools are you excited about right now? I'm gonna hold you to, just a couple.
Rasmus Makwarth:Well, I'm gonna say I'm gonna it's gonna it's gonna be very boring, but, you know, AI is just very interesting, of course. And it's also interesting in the context of product engineering. Because if we get more and more help in terms of writing the syntax, I think engineers are also getting closer to being problem solvers as opposed to code producers. Like if we get help producing the code, we can spend more time talking to customers and help their problems actually, right, with the code that we get produced. So I think also it's a career path and a a wise career path for an engineer to spend some time on product engineering.
Jack Bridger:So what I'm hearing is cursor, copilot, all those sorts of things.
Rasmus Makwarth:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jack Bridger:Yep. Okay. Amazing. And so if people wanna learn more, they can go to bucket.co. Is
Rasmus Makwarth:that? Bucket.co. Yeah. Bucket. Okay.
Rasmus Makwarth:At Macworth at Twitter. It's this, World of Warcraft sounding last name that I have, but it's legit.
Jack Bridger:Does that that just sounds it sounds actually like English to me. I don't know if that means World of Warcraft. Yeah. Rasmus, thank you so much for joining, and thanks everyone for listening.
Rasmus Makwarth:Thank you.
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