Episode 82
· 01:02:33
And that's the thing that is, like, completely freeing is you you realize, man, everything is open for the taking. I just have to not care about looking like an idiot. And that at that point, you're free.
Jack Bridger:Hi, everyone. You're listening to Scaling Dev Tools. I'm joined today by Aaron Francis. Aaron is the founder of TriHard Studios, and you might also recently know him from his work with PlanetScale and also the person that built handwriting robots, which maybe we'll get on to, but and most importantly, Aaron is which is what we're gonna talk about today. Aaron is absolutely amazing at making videos for developers.
Jack Bridger:Aaron, thank you so much for joining.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Jack Bridger:So recently, you ended your time at PlanetScale. That's not what this show's about. So if you've come for the come for the goss there, Aaron's talked about it extensively on his own show, mostly technical, so go maybe go listen there. What we're gonna talk about today is how Aaron makes videos. I would well, that's what I would love to hear.
Jack Bridger:So before I do that, I just wanted to read out some of the comments that are on Aaron's videos, and bear in mind, these are all from a b to b planet scale channel, which is mostly about quite quote, unquote, dry topics.
Aaron Francis:The most boring, unsexy topic you can imagine. Yeah. You can say it. It's okay. I get it.
Jack Bridger:I don't mind. Okay. Some would say.
Aaron Francis:Yeah.
Jack Bridger:So great stuff. Love that you mix in a bit a bit of fun with the content. It's what got me to subscribe. Another one's person said, literally laughing out loud several times. Absolute gold.
Jack Bridger:My partner's like, what are you watching? A guy seeding a database. PHP is wonderful. Your video's even better. Keep rocking.
Jack Bridger:Your content is phenomenal. Exploration and visualization is great, one of the best d v channels out there. Hey man, your video's kick ass, and I cannot thank you enough for your approach with these. Your videos can be watched once and understood, every single one of them. I don't know how you do it, but the way you've picked to teach anything you teach is incredible.
Jack Bridger:You freaking rock. Thank you. That's super nice. So these are like, you're teaching people how to see databases, and you're getting this kind of reaction. Yeah.
Jack Bridger:There's also a lot of numbers there. I think you got up to, like, 30, 40,000 subscribers, 100 of 1000 of views on some of the top videos. Mhmm. So that is to say, Aron is very good at making videos. And so today, we're gonna talk to him about how do you make videos for developers.
Jack Bridger:So, Aron, how do you come up with ideas, first of all? This episode is brought to you by Work OS. At some point, you're gonna land a big customer and they're gonna ask you for enterprise features. That's where Work OS comes in because they give you these features out of the box. Features like skin provisioning, SAML authentication, and audit logs.
Jack Bridger:They have an easy to use API and they're trusted by big dev tools like Vercel as well as smaller fast growing dev tools like Nock. So if you're looking to cross the enterprise chasm and make yourself enterprise ready, check out WorkOS. We've also done an episode with Michael, the founder of WorkOS, where he shares a lot of tips around crossing the enterprise chasm, landing your 1st enterprise deals, and making sure that you're ready for them. Thanks, WorkOS, for sponsoring the podcast and back to the show.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. Man, I gotta go back and read those comments. That made me feel that made me feel really good. I was like, oh, wow. Yeah.
Aaron Francis:That is encouraging. That's so funny. Yeah. So it's, yeah. There's a lot that goes into making videos, so I'm excited to, like, dig into all the different aspects.
Aaron Francis:I think, I think for me, one of, like, the overarching overriding principles is I enjoy teaching. And so I think that when a lot of people consider being on YouTube, I think there is more of a tendency to think I have to be mister beast or, like, I have to be Casey Neistat or Mark Rober or one of these people, maybe Mark Rober less so, but I have to be one of these people who is just, like, super exciting and, like, blowing up a train or, like, living underground for a week. And it's you know, that works. Like, that's viable content. There's also a huge demand for, like, not pure education because we see a lot of, you know, people put webinars on YouTube and they just bomb because it's like this boring, but education with a little bit of, like, personality and a little bit of entertainment and a little bit of excitement.
Aaron Francis:And that's kind of where I start from, like, like, 0.0 is what am I personally, like, excited about? Or what can I get excited about? Like, I historically have been really weirdly, you know, into databases, which is an insane like, an insane thing to say, and I promise I do have friends. But I've been into databases for a long time. Right?
Aaron Francis:And so that comes easy. But there are other topics that I have done YouTube videos on on my personal channel where it's like, I wonder what I can figure out here. I'm I'm kind of learning and I'm translating this learning into teaching for you. And so I think step 0 is, like, what are you interested in? Because if you don't care, it's gonna be hard to make someone else care.
Aaron Francis:I think it's probably the the biggest point there.
Jack Bridger:So those videos that you did where they weren't so they were more like you were trying to come up with an idea. They were less popular than the ones where it was like you were just passionate about the topic.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. Less popular or just like a bigger internal struggle for me. Like, coming up coming up with an idea that I'm, like, excited about and then doing because it's a lot of work, which we'll talk about. And then, you know, doing all the work, that goes a lot it's a lot easier relatively if I care about the thing that I'm teaching. You can still, like, you can, I'm sure, produce videos that do super well that you hate the content of, and you're just gonna you're gonna die.
Aaron Francis:Like, your your insides will be hollowed out and you will be one of these YouTubers that's like, hey. I burned out. I'm gonna go live on a farm. And I don't feel any of that stress or pressure because the thing that I'm teaching, I'm really excited about. I'm really interested in.
Aaron Francis:And maybe, you know, in 10 years, I'll burn out and go live on a farm. But until then, I plan to, like, enjoy the content that I'm producing. And so for me, that's kind of like that's like before the starting line is do I care about this?
Jack Bridger:Yeah. I I agree. That well, at least from my perspective, just from podcasts, like, I feel that in that Mhmm. Sometimes I mostly interview guests that I want to hear about, and it makes it so much easier.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. Totally. And then I think, you know so if you're, like if there's a content area, topic, whatever you're excited about, then the question is, like, how do you come up with video ideas? And I think once you start, you can't stop. And it feels weird to be like, before you start, you think, how am I ever gonna come up with an idea?
Aaron Francis:After you start, the question is, how do I have enough time to do all of these ideas that I have? And I think that's the same with that's really the same with, like, almost anything that you do in in life. Like, once you start into a hobby, for example, then you notice that there are lots of other people that do that hobby. You'll see things on the Internet that relate to your hobby. And it's just kind of like once you're in the zone, you start to notice things out in the world that you didn't notice before.
Aaron Francis:And it's the exact same with, like, with YouTube videos or or any kind of video that you're you're producing. So, like, when I'm in the zone for, you know, teaching MySQL content and I'm, like, scrolling on Twitter, which I do all the time, I'll come across a tweet that's something interesting about either MySQL or database or, you know, application framework or something. And I'm like, oh, that's a good idea. I should add that to my list. And so it's like you prime your brain to say, hey.
Aaron Francis:I'm working on x thing, and then you walk out into the world and x is just everywhere, and you see it all over the place. And so that's the first thing that I would encourage people to to not worry about is, like, you'll come up with ideas. That's not gonna be the problem. The problem is gonna be having time to do all the ideas that you wanna do.
Jack Bridger:Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. So, yep, once you're in it and you're following things that you wanna do, there's gonna be a lot of ideas.
Aaron Francis:Infinite. Infinitely many and finite time. So I think, you know, once you get, like let's say, you know, let's say you come up with an idea. So the way that I start is there's always something that I want to teach. And so it's a technique or a pattern or something I found in the documentation or something that's like, this is the core educational nugget.
Aaron Francis:And I think where I have had a lot of success is wrapping a core educational nugget in an interesting, entertaining, hopefully funny, like, hopefully encouraging package. So, like, in the middle is, hey. You're gonna learn, you know, you're gonna learn how this obscure database thing works. Wrapped around it is personality and excitement and humor and all of this stuff, and you kinda sneak. It's like feeding how do you feed a dog a pill?
Aaron Francis:You, like, you, like, cover it in peanut butter, and then you're like, hey. Do you want some peanut butter? And they eat it. And you're like, I'm so much smarter than you. And it's it's kinda like it's kinda like that.
Aaron Francis:People on YouTube want to be entertained. Right? And so you give them some entertaining, like, packaging title thumbnail, but importantly, not a misleading title and thumbnail. I'm very adamant about that. You have to give them something that is intriguing that piques their curiosity, and then you fulfill that promise in the video.
Aaron Francis:You don't you don't make up something and put it in the thumbnail just because you know people will click on it. Like, that is a short term gain for a long term loss, but you do have to be a little bit entertaining, and I think that's where I've had a lot of a lot of success there.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. And was was there when you started doing the videos, did you consciously make it more entertaining, or was it something that kind of just came naturally or developed?
Aaron Francis:Yeah. I think it's come naturally. Whenever so I I do I have a course on on screencasting, which is like, how do you, you know, how do you teach stuff via screencasting? And one of the things I say in there is, like, you always want to be yourself. Right?
Aaron Francis:You don't want to adopt a persona that is not your own because I think, again, that's a way to burn out really quickly because you feel like you're playing a character and that just feels really hard to me. So that's that's rule number 1 is be yourself. Rule number 2 is you gotta crank up yourself. You gotta crank it up a notch or 2. Like, whatever you are, when you go on video, you need to be more of that on video than you would in a coffee shop with a friend.
Aaron Francis:Right? Because you you like 1, I think on video, you come across as, like, more downbeat. Not you personally. This is I'm I'm not yeah. This isn't an this isn't an attack to you.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Go subscribe to the channel so you can see. Yeah.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. 1, a a person, an individual comes across just like a little more downbeat on camera, and I think some of that is, like, people just feel weird being excited alone in the room talking to a camera, and that's what you're doing. You're an you're an insane person because you're in your you're in your, you know, spare bedroom waving your hands and shouting at a camera. And it's like, that's objectively insane. But if you don't, like, if you don't, like, ramp it up a little bit, your YouTube videos are gonna come across really downbeat and people just aren't gonna watch no matter how good the content is.
Jack Bridger:Is are there have you got any tips for someone who wants to kind of get themselves in that in that zone and make themselves a bit more upbeat?
Aaron Francis:Yeah. For sure. I think find, find creators that you know, like, and trust and see what they're doing. And I don't think it's important that you that you, like, look up to, again, mister beast. I don't think that that's relevant at all.
Aaron Francis:I think it is relevant that you find somebody that you want to emulate and you take, like, you take bits of what they're doing and think, how does this, like, what is true about what they're doing that aligns with what I want to do? And so you look at maybe their energy or their pacing or their delivery style and you think, okay, that is, that is applicable to me and so how can I apply that to my delivery or my presentation? What I do, like, when I'm especially when I'm doing a course is I will watch back, like, I'll watch back the previous 2, 3, 4 videos that I have done before I start a new one. So, like, I come in, you know, I'm gonna come in in the morning and I'm like, alright, I gotta record a, you know, a course video. I need to be real sure that I'm matching the energy of the videos I've already done.
Aaron Francis:And so, like, even I, who I feel like it comes naturally to me, even I watch back my old stuff, like, from the day before just to make sure that I'm like, oh, yeah. This is the vibe. Like, this is the pace. This is the tone. You gotta move faster.
Aaron Francis:Because if I walk in groggy on a Thursday morning and record a course, but on Wednesday afternoon, I was amped. Like, that's gonna be weird for the people watching it. Right? And I think the same applies to YouTube is just watch people that you like or if you feel like you really nailed 1, watch that and get that vibe, like, instilled and then just turn on the camera and, like, and go. I think that, like, the meta or, like, the philosophical thing there is you have to let go of what you think other people are thinking about you.
Aaron Francis:And I think there is a real there's a real feeling inside of me and inside of a lot of creators of, like, this is a little bit cringey. And, like, it is a little bit cringey to, again, be in your spare bedroom making a video about Laravel at 9:30 at night. And, like, wow. That's like you're trying really hard there. But I think the thing is, like, whenever people watch that, people want to people want to, like, glom on or attach themselves to somebody that's excited about what they're doing.
Aaron Francis:And so while you are feeling like, people are like, my friends from high school are gonna look at this and be like, why is this guy trying YouTube? You just have to let it go. You just have to say, I don't care. This is what I want out of my life, and I'm gonna be excited about what I'm doing.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree on that. And side note, I feel you have this I think you talk about this philosophy that you've got about, like, just positivity and encouragement and stuff. Right?
Aaron Francis:Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I think, yeah. One of the things that, like, I I could pull up my Twitter bio.
Aaron Francis:I don't remember exactly what it says, but, like, on Twitter, I'm a sincere poster. I don't I don't do cynicism. I rarely do sarcasm on Twitter because it communicates so poorly through text. But, like, my hope and my my dream for my personal, like, public persona is that people are encouraged and inspired and, like, empowered to to work hard at the dreams that they have. And so my whole my whole thing and this is, again, an amped up version of my internal beliefs.
Aaron Francis:Like, that is true to my core. And on public channels, I'm very like, I push that a lot because, 1, it's something I believe in, and, 2, I think it's something that specifically developers need to hear. Like, hey, if you if you put yourself out there, something good is gonna happen. And I think developers are often, like, hyper logical, and that sometimes leads to cynicism. And then you look at people that are putting themselves out there and you think, like, wow, why are they why why are they getting to speak at all the conferences?
Aaron Francis:And why are they getting all of the benefits? And it's like, I know the answer. The answer is because they put themselves out there. And that is available to everyone. Like, that that, that pathway, it's the it's the exact same pathway that I've walked, is available to every single person who is, like, brave enough to say, I don't care.
Aaron Francis:I'm gonna start publishing blog posts, videos, tweets, whatever it is, and that's available to everybody. And I'm trying to tell everyone, you can do it. And it's like, I just have to keep saying it.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like if you have this internal belief coming back to your point about, like, just getting over, like, your high school friends
Aaron Francis:Mhmm.
Jack Bridger:You there's those thoughts of them saying, you know, he's got a podcast now.
Aaron Francis:Exactly. Yes. That's exactly it. You remember you remember Jack from high school?
Jack Bridger:Yeah.
Aaron Francis:That's a podcast. Yes. Exactly. I don't
Jack Bridger:know why my high school friends had an American accent, but Yeah.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. That's great.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So but I feel like if you have that view, then maybe you don't think about that as much because you're projecting the world around you is gonna be encouraging as well.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And I kinda like, I I look at that and think like, oh, I wonder if my high school friends are watching.
Aaron Francis:And honestly, maybe, but really the answer is like, no. They're worried about their own lives. They're worried about they're worried about what people think of them. Everybody's worried that everyone else is thinking about you when it turns out everybody's thinking about themselves. And turns out there are you can do whatever you want and nobody can stop you.
Aaron Francis:And that's the thing that is like completely freeing is you you realize, man, everything is open for the taking. I just have to not care about looking like an idiot. And that at that point, you're free.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. I I think that's that's a that was like yeah. Look. We have the climax of the episode already.
Aaron Francis:Shoot. Sorry.
Jack Bridger:Show's over everyone. Sorry. Okay. So okay. So circling back to the we're gonna go from the high to, like, just okay.
Jack Bridger:Boring details. So Yep. Once you've got you've got the idea, you're in the right, you're in the right zone, you've got the right energy, what Are you coming with, like, a very clear plan on what you're saying, or is it, like, something that's kind of
Aaron Francis:Yeah. There are many reasonable ways to do this, and I will tell you what mine is. My way to to actually record a video. So you've got you've got your idea and then you've figured out what the angle is, and the angle is very important. So like, I did a, for example, for a concrete example, I did a video about what has changed in PHP, the language, what has changed in PHP in the past 10 or so years.
Aaron Francis:Okay. So if if you're listening right now, which logically you are listening, if you're listening, you may think that sounds like a boring video. What's new in the past 10 years in PHP? Like, okay. But so that's the content idea.
Aaron Francis:That's the thing. That's the nugget of, like, I wanna I wanna show people that PHP is, like, has advanced. The the angle or, like, the packaging is, and this is the title that I gave the video is PHP doesn't suck, parentheses, anymore. And so, like, even in in the title alone and so, like, in the thumbnail, I'm holding, the PHP logo in both hands, and I think it's like, PHP is greater than PHP or something like that. And so it's like, PHP is better than PHP.
Aaron Francis:And so even in the title and the packaging alone, it's like, hey. PHP used to suck, but it doesn't suck anymore. And so I got these comments of, like, PHP never sucked. And I'm like, great. We're that's fine.
Aaron Francis:I don't really you know, so I got the people that are, like, huge PHP stands, and then I got the people that were, like, oh, PHP definitely sucked. I wonder why it doesn't suck anymore. Right? And so I kind of got I kinda got both sides of that one. And that one I mean, I think that one's done 300,000 views, which, like
Jack Bridger:Wow.
Aaron Francis:For for a video about the changes in PHP in the last 10 years is insane.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. I guess the boring version of that video is when you just go through a big list of, changes and just say and its title is what's new
Aaron Francis:in PHP? Yeah. Nobody watches that. Like, if I I 100 views. I wouldn't watch that.
Aaron Francis:I wouldn't watch that. I'm a PHP developer, and I'd be like, I don't care. This is stupid. Yeah. And so that goes from content to angle, and now we're, like, at recording.
Aaron Francis:So you got your vibe right. You're ready to go. You've got your angle. The way that I record is, is bullet points. And there there are reasonable minds differ on this, and so I'm not I'm not militant about this.
Aaron Francis:Some people do a full on script and that helps them. What I find is a full on script feels a little bit stifling to me and feels a little bit restrictive and puts me in a different zone. It puts me in, like, robot reading a script zone. And that may just be because I'm a bad actor. And, like, if I was a better actor, that would be a more viable strategy.
Aaron Francis:But for me, I basically know what the signposts are or, like, what the waypoints are and figuring out how to get from, alright, I gotta, you know, I gotta spin up the project. I gotta install this thing, and then I'm gonna show this demo, and then I'm gonna sign off with this. Like, figuring out my way through that is a little bit of, like, it's a little bit of it's a little bit of jazz. I don't play music. I've never played jazz, but I imagine it's a little bit like jazz.
Aaron Francis:Right? It's like every time is slightly different, and on the way through, I might find a funny turn of phrase or a funny joke, and I'm like, oh, yeah. If I do another take, I'm gonna say that joke again because that was that came out of nowhere, which I think is important, which gives it that, like, that energy, that liveness. But I'm gonna say it again because that was a pretty good joke. And so I I find that the bullet points and the knowing, like, alright, you just gotta get through this section and then you can stop and think about the next section.
Aaron Francis:I find that to be really helpful for me. And it also coincides with the way that I edit, which is like I usually do a big, you know, talking head of me first, and then I do a screen showing what I'm working on with me in the corner. And so even as I'm recording, I'm thinking, what are the edit points here? Like, I wanna get through the the intro, the talking head with 0 cuts. And so I may end up taking that part 5, 6, 10 times.
Aaron Francis:And so instead of instead of, like, struggling through it once and then going back and chopping it to pieces, I just trash it. And I'm like, great. Now I kinda know better what I'm gonna say, and I'm gonna say it over. And I'm gonna say it over and over until I get it right, which is, like, my goodness. It's a 32nd clip, and I can't I can do that.
Aaron Francis:Like, I I may not be good at a lot of things, but I can get through 30 seconds without stumbling. And then I know, like, great. Now I can rest a little bit because there's a there's a natural edit point right there where I'm going to switch to the screen. And so I can, like, kind of I can kind of queue up, like, alright. Alright.
Aaron Francis:So now I got to do this and this and this. Alright. Let's go from there. And I start again. And if I mess up, I just go back to what I know is the edit point and I start over.
Aaron Francis:And so it's a real, like, fits and starts kinda like static or sporadic process. And sometimes I'll get all the way through a video and think, boy, that sucked. And I know now now having delivered that content, I know how I should have delivered it and I just start over. And it's like that time, it just takes me 50% as long because I know exactly the best path through now that I've stumbled through it once or twice.
Jack Bridger:And when you say that, like stumbling, it could not be, like, actually you're coding and talking at the same time and kind of going through that.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. So when I say stumble, you know, when you when you have major points that you want to hit and you have you leave the sinew or the connective tissue, you leave that blank to be just ad libbed on the spot, sometimes it just sucks. So sometimes I'll be like, great. We need to set up this let me install this dependency and now, well, you know what? Now I don't know what we're I don't know what we're gonna do next.
Aaron Francis:And it's like, shoot. I dorked that one up, didn't I? And so but, you know, you do that a couple of times, and then you, like, it's kinda like, I think they're called cow paths where it's like you walk on that grass enough that it becomes a trail. And as I'm recording, I kinda figure out what that trail is, and I'm like, oh, actually, it would be better if I didn't do that. It would be better for the video if I swapped this order.
Aaron Francis:And now having gone through it, that much is very clear to me. And so I don't really opt like, I am never gonna do a course or a video on, like, the most efficient way to record videos because my way is not very efficient. Like, it would be probably way more efficient if I were to sit down and, like, write it out and then be like, how does this flow feel? I just can't do it. Everything like, all of I think what I think what is the magic comes from almost the spontaneous discovery of that sinew, that connective tissue as I'm going.
Aaron Francis:And that's where, like, the little the little jokes, the little facial expressions, the little, that was kind of funny. Like, let's move on. That that kind of stuff comes out of just, like, performing, basically.
Jack Bridger:Would you say how how long would you say each, like, segment would be that
Aaron Francis:Yeah. So I I call them chunks, and so I I, yeah, I I chunkify my videos, which is a technical term. And I think each, you know, each segment, each chunk is max 2 minutes, maybe 3, because there's so much, like, you know, the the opening talking head has gotta be quick because you gotta get attention and get to the point. Mhmm. Otherwise, people are gonna click away.
Aaron Francis:So that, you know, that's 30 seconds or less. But then you get into, like, a coding, you know, a coding chunk, and it's like, this could legitimately go on for 6, 7 minutes just like screen sharing. Here's the thing. You're not gonna be able to make it 6, 7 minutes, like, without fumbling or needing to cut. And I don't hate jump cuts.
Aaron Francis:Like, I don't hate showing a cut. I do hate the YouTube style where they cut every 3 seconds. I do hate that. But if you were to stay on your code editor and your face cam bubble for 6 or 7 minutes, people are gonna get a little bit bored. Even if the content is good, you kinda wanna switch up some visuals every now and then to keep that little dopamine, like, to keep it pumping out.
Aaron Francis:Right? So you do 2 or 3 minutes of coding. Maybe you mess up once and you cut that out and it's no big deal. But you do 2 or 3 minutes of coding and then you switch back to full screen, like, face cam here in the studio and you're like you explain something and you move your hands, you wave your hands around a lot and you're like, alright, let's get back to it. Here or you say, like, here's what we're gonna do next.
Aaron Francis:We just did this. Now we're gonna do this next. Let's get back to it. Boom. You're back to screen sharing.
Aaron Francis:And you have, like, you have 2 great edit points there. So you do your first chunk. You do a talking head. You do your second chunk. And then it's, like, great.
Aaron Francis:You can do the same thing when you're switching between, let's say, code editor and browser or terminal or whatever. That's a natural point where you can kinda like, great. We're done with that part. Let's talk for a second. Now let's switch over to the browser.
Aaron Francis:Or you can stay in the face bubble and just switch over to the browser. But now you know if I need to cut, I can start with, alright. Now we're in the browser because that's kind of a natural story cut point, if that makes sense.
Jack Bridger:That makes sense. And and in total, your videos are for it seems like most are around 10 minutes. Is that
Aaron Francis:Yes. 6 to 15 is probably what I shoot for on on YouTube. With, with, like, course content, I can go a little shorter or longer because I know that people are more invested. And so I know that the pace can be a little slower, the tone can be a little slower, the education can be a little deeper, and the duration doesn't matter as much. But on YouTube, I'm shooting for 6 to 12 to 15 minutes.
Aaron Francis:And is is that driven by the kind of chunks that you think make good content, or is
Jack Bridger:there is there some kind of algorithmic, you know, YouTube algorithm?
Aaron Francis:I don't maybe I should, but I don't let the algorithm tail wag the dog very much. Of course, I want, I want to do what the platform wants so that the platform will promote me. More than that, I want to do what I want to do. And so the, you know, the the tension is how do you combine what the platform wants with what do you want to do with your life? And here's what I don't wanna do with my life.
Aaron Francis:I don't wanna make clickbait thumbnails. I don't wanna pretend to be surprised about something that I'm not surprised about. And so, like, there's this tension between what does Aaron wanna do with his life and it's just like, I don't know, have some fun, make some videos, teach some people some stuff. And what does the platform want? The platform wants people to click on thumbnails and watch videos.
Aaron Francis:And so finding your sweet spot between what do you wanna do with your life and what does YouTube want you to do with your life, That's very important. And you can ease like, you can easily go down the the rabbit hole of I'm gonna do with my life what YouTube wants me to do with my life. And I feel like, oh, that feels awful. So I don't think it's algorithmically driven. I think it's I usually have a piece of content that dictates 6 to 15 minutes.
Aaron Francis:And if it dictates 45 minutes, I'll break that up into 2 videos because I don't really wanna try to do a 45 minute video. That just feels too long to me.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When you've been making videos in the past, like the a lot of the my SQL, MySQL, however
Aaron Francis:you say it. Yeah. Whatever you want.
Jack Bridger:We'll get into the debate. Yeah. How were you thinking about, like, these explicitly are targeted at developers Mhmm. Who are senior engineers and Yeah. Have or or was it yeah.
Jack Bridger:I guess that's the question.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. Yeah. That's a good question. You don't even need the or. Yeah.
Aaron Francis:That's a good that's a good stand alone question. I definitely have a persona in mind. And specifically with the YouTube video or I'm sorry, the MySQL videos, the persona is the meaty middle. So, in the database world, you've got the low end, you got the low end neck beards. Right?
Aaron Francis:All the DBAs. And I can my dad was I grew up. My dad was a DBA. So, like, I I've inherited the right to say neckbeard, so please don't at me. But, like, that's that's actually how I learned sequel was Really?
Aaron Francis:You know, my dad was a DBA, and he would come home and yeah. He would show me how to do stuff. It was super cool. And so that is a small and diminishing segment of the population. Right?
Aaron Francis:Because all the DBAs are going to the big platforms, and people don't really have in house DBAs as much as they used to. At the very, very top end is people who are like, I actually don't want to know what a database is. I just want to interact with an API. And I will do get some posts all day long. And if you use a database underneath, fantastic.
Aaron Francis:I don't care. So those are the 2 the 2 bell ends of, like, the the curve. In the meaty middle is application developers that don't wanna be DBAs, but they just need to know how to freaking use a database. They don't need to know how to, like, host it and provide 9 nines of redundancy and reliability or whatever. But they wanna know, like, where should I put indexes?
Aaron Francis:Not only where should I put them, how do I know where to put them next time? Right? Like, how can I, as an application developer who's not going to like run my own database, how can I become an expert user of the database? And so that's kind of that's kind of where I targeted. So I never ever talked about like, here's how to host MySQL or here's how to do, you know, bin log replication or anything like that.
Aaron Francis:It's just I don't know. Hopefully, your platform handles that. Like, that's really that's not your concern. And if it is your concern, maybe this video isn't for you. But if you are an application developer who wants to be an expert user of a database, this is great.
Aaron Francis:And it just so happens that that content niche was wide open and, frankly, is still wide open. And so I'm hoping to tackle that as an independent. But I think the whole, like, hey, you're an intermediate. This is databases 201. This is not 101, and this is not 401.
Aaron Francis:This isn't a graduate level class. This is, like, you're smart. You're a developer. You've touched the back end before, and you need to know, like, what do you what do you do next? And that's where I slide it in.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. That's that's a really nice way to put it. I I I like the kind of college analogy as well. Yeah. That makes sense.
Jack Bridger:And what what did it look like to actually target that audience? Was there anything that you did or was it more of a just keep them in mind as you go?
Aaron Francis:No. It was a lot a lot of what I did. So with we'll go with, like, you know, the educational nugget is wrapped in some sort of packaging. The packaging, they're like because of who I was targeting, that dictated that the packaging looked a certain way. And so a lot of times, the packaging around a database nugget was an application angle.
Aaron Francis:And so it's like, hey, your SaaS is this is actually a video I did. Your SaaS is slow and falling over because you don't know where to put indexes on your database. Let's learn how to do that and then apply it back to your SaaS application and see that it doesn't fall over anymore. And so, like, if I had been targeting DBAs, it wouldn't I wouldn't be talking about, like, here's how your SaaS application works and here's how you can do a query to find what's slow. Like, they know all of that.
Aaron Francis:They want something deeper and they don't care about, you know, the the SaaS framework. And another one would be like another one would be how to, like, how to do a specific thing at the application layer aided by a a database technique. So here's a way that you can, like, here's a way that you can find all the email addresses that use the little plus sign trick for Gmail. Right? So you can say aaronplusspam@gmail.com, and it goes to aaron@gmail.com.
Aaron Francis:Right? That's a Gmail trick. There's a way in the database to, like, remove those plus signs and see if you have any duplicate sign ups. And so it's like the framing is the framing is like your SaaS application has free tier abuse because of this Gmail trick. The nugget is here's how you create a virtual generated column in MySQL.
Aaron Francis:It's like those are very different things. Right? One is very clickable. One is very educational. But if you throw them together, you get best of both worlds.
Aaron Francis:You get to execute on your pure and noble mission of teaching the world about databases. But you also get people to click on it because otherwise, they're not gonna click on it. So because nobody knows what a virtual generated column is, which is the point of the video. So if you put that in the title, people are gonna be like, don't know. Don't know what it is.
Aaron Francis:Don't need it. I'm gonna go watch this video about outer space, which is a lot of what I watch on YouTube. So that's that's kinda like, that's the audience that I'm going for dictates a little bit about the packaging, that I put around the nugget. And it's like, is this when when how
Jack Bridger:do you know that founders care about, like, the plus? Because I I guess, like, maybe that one yeah. Do you actively go out to try and find out, like, talk to people and that sort of
Aaron Francis:Yeah. You can you can approach it from either direction. You can start with your nugget, which I did on that one. So I started with, virtual generated columns are really cool. That was like
Jack Bridger:Yeah.
Aaron Francis:That was my mega my mega brain thought. It was like, oh, man. That's cool. And so then at that point, it's like, now the challenge is, how do you wrap that in something that is relatable, something that is interesting? I knew about that Gmail, you know, plus sign trick, and I thought, I can make up a story there.
Aaron Francis:Like, I can make up a story of you've got a free tier and people are skirting around it and, like, here's how you can do it with a virtual generated column. So from for that video, I thought, what is the nugget? And then where in like, as an application developer myself, where might I use that? And then that becomes the packaging. You can approach it from the other direction where you see and this is, again, like, you're out in the world and you see things and your brain says, hey.
Aaron Francis:You're working on something similar to that. Like, you should notice that thing. Mhmm. And you could you could see something on Twitter that's like, these freaking people are signing up with a plus sign in their email address, and they're getting around our unique user registration. And you could look at that and think, oh, that actually lines up with something I just read about virtual generated columns.
Aaron Francis:I finally have an angle for that nugget that I couldn't figure out before. And so you can approach it either way. It doesn't it doesn't really matter, as long as as long as you're, like, keeping your eyes open, you're gonna see you're gonna see the angles. And suddenly, it's like every I only spend time on Twitter. Every tweet becomes a potential database angle for a video.
Aaron Francis:And you're like, how could I and another good example is UUIDs. So, like, people always argue about GUIDs and UUIDs and all that stuff. And you see that on Twitter enough, and you're like, great. Now I have an angle for how to do, primary keys that are GUIDs in MySQL and why you maybe wouldn't and why, you know, it depends on which version of a UUID you use, but you see enough of these real world conversations and the angles start to create themselves.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. And maybe you covered this, but, like, what is an angle? What makes it an angle, or a story? Yeah. Well, kind of, I guess, I wanted to go back to, like, story.
Jack Bridger:I think you've mentioned that word a little bit. Like, is angle the same thing as story? Is it
Aaron Francis:Yeah. So angle, story, narrative, packaging, point of view, all kind of like circle around this ephemeral idea of, like, how are you going to teach this thing? You can, and universities do, often teach things head on with no creativity. And it's like, here is the information. And, like, maybe, you know, that's what you pay for in college.
Aaron Francis:And so you're sitting there, like, absorbing it and being bored.
Jack Bridger:It's hard.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. It's hard. You can do that. You can do that, I think, more, you can do that more easily in a course where people have paid money and are sitting down to learn a thing. You need less of an angle because the person has expressed their interest and said, I am here to learn this thing.
Aaron Francis:Please teach me this thing. And so the nugget becomes more important in that, in that arena. But when you're on YouTube, you need something that is intriguing or compelling or like speaks to the audience. And so while it is possible to teach a concept head on on YouTube, I have found it more effective to have some sort of, like, hook or narrative structure or storyline or a way to say, like, you as the consumer, this matches your persona, and I'm gonna I'm going to appeal to your persona and teach you something that you didn't know yet. Because most of the time, people aren't gonna click on things that they don't know they need to know.
Aaron Francis:Right? If you don't know you need to know something, you're just gonna move on. But if you see something on YouTube that it's like, hey, Aaron, you need to know this thing as a SaaS operator. And then it turns out the SaaS the the thing I need to know is database specific, like, oh, that worked out pretty well. But as I'm scrolling, I don't think I need to know about virtual generated columns.
Aaron Francis:Why would I need to know that? I don't need to I'm not a DBA. I don't need to know that. And so you have to have some sort of, like, what's how are you going to weasel your way into this person's mind? How are you going to convince them with a title and a thumbnail that they should care about this esoteric thing that you have to teach?
Aaron Francis:Will you put it in terms that they'll understand? And that's kinda like the angle, the packaging, the story around that.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. So okay. So let me so let's say we've got this episode,
Aaron Francis:right,
Jack Bridger:that you're recording. And I guess the nugget here is how to make, well, how to make YouTube videos people watch or how to that's Mhmm. Although that feels a bit too maybe that's more compelling part as well. That's pretty good. Yeah.
Jack Bridger:That's that's awesome, innit?
Aaron Francis:You're a natural.
Jack Bridger:No. No. No. So but the nugget is, like, the the nitty gritty of, like, the process of making developer videos. It's like the part where you talk about segments, chunks.
Jack Bridger:Mhmm. And and then the packages would be around thinking around, like, people listening to this have to have dev tools, they want developers to use Mhmm. Use their product. So it's like trying to tie making YouTube videos, like chunking, recording YouTube videos. The the good method to do that with like, getting users So because it will come back to just getting users.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Yeah.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. Okay. So Yeah. I think it's hard to take a podcast as an example of this, for 1, because we've covered 8 different nuggets. Right?
Aaron Francis:We've covered a lot of things we've covered a lot of things that are, like, one should learn this, and there's a you know, if there are 8 of them, there are 8 different packages that you could put around it. Right? So, like, a good a good, you know, framing or packaging for one segment of what we just talked about is, like, don't let YouTube ruin your life as a creator. Right? That's a good
Jack Bridger:So good.
Aaron Francis:That's a good like, I would click on that. And then the conversation is the part where we talk about what do you want to do with your life and what does YouTube want you to do with your life. Right? And so, like, the content delivers on that, but if you were to say if you were to title if you were to title that part of the video or this entire video or podcast differently, more like straightforward, like a conversation with Aaron Francis about YouTube. That's what I do.
Aaron Francis:Who's Aaron? Nobody nobody knows Aaron. Nobody knows me. And if you're not, like, if you're not actively pursuing YouTube education, you're not gonna click on that. And even if you are, you've got no idea who I am and why why do I wanna listen to this guy talk about YouTube?
Aaron Francis:I don't know him. I've never seen him on YouTube, so he must he must not be big. But even if I'm not creating on YouTube, like, don't let you don't let the algorithm ruin your life is pretty clickable. Like, that's yeah. Tell me more.
Aaron Francis:That sounds like drama. I love drama. Everyone loves drama. And so I think that's one, like, one example of the nugget and the framing. I think for you know, everybody that's listening to this is trying to scale dev tools based on the name of the podcast.
Aaron Francis:Right? So you have to imagine there are lots of people out there with, let's say, dev tool platforms that are really good and powerful. If you are going broad, which I think on YouTube, you have to go broad. So, like, if you're going broad, what you don't wanna do is say, next how to integrate Next. Js with Clerk.
Aaron Francis:It's like, well, I don't use Next, and I don't use Clerk, so I don't care. But if you're Clerk and you're like, how do I how do we go broad on YouTube? Well, you've got an infinite vein of content to mine. Right? So you're in the whatever authentication, authorization, role based access.
Aaron Francis:You're you're in that world. You start to teach people maybe best practices about authentication or authorization or like even better stories of it gone wrong. Everybody loves drama. Right? And so I think if you're scaling a dev tool, then you want to highlight the general use cases of the tool that you are a host of.
Aaron Francis:Right? So for example, PlanetScale was a MySQL host. It did a lot more. It did a whole lot more than just like MySQL in the cloud, but the angle that I took on all of the content is like almost MySQL, but even broader is just like how to do this thing with a database. And while you're here, you gotta put your database somewhere.
Aaron Francis:Right? Have you heard of planetscale.com? And so, like, that's the way that you go super broad. And instead of saying integrating Next. Js with Clerk, which is good content for SEO and for middle of the funnel and maybe bottom of the funnel, like, tutorials have a purpose.
Aaron Francis:But if you wanna go super broad, then, like, 8 authentication mistakes you're probably making is like, oh, yeah. I wonder what mistakes I'm probably making. And then you're like, oh, Clerk does this. Clerk is like, oh, Clerk handles all of these for me. That's neat.
Aaron Francis:I just learned something and heard about this service that I'm gonna go check out. And so that's kind of the, like, you teach your SaaS maybe for middle of funnel people. You teach some concepts. That's great for top of funnel people.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. That that's really good. Yeah. So Clerk team, Nick, you've got a free
Aaron Francis:Yeah. I just I I had several friends go several coworkers from PlanetScale go over to Clerk, and so Clerk was on the brain.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. That's amazing.
Jack Bridger:I I'm gonna say this has helped me. I have you got time for one more question? I've got more Yeah.
Aaron Francis:Hit me. Yeah. What do I have to do? I got laid off. I'm unemployed.
Jack Bridger:Tell me.
Aaron Francis:What do you got?
Jack Bridger:Okay. One more question. So when okay. I I do YouTube now, and I'm trying to get better. As people will see, our channel is a work in progress.
Jack Bridger:I go and look at the, you know, the the charts they give you. They give you lots about, like, retention and things like that. Like, do you do you look at those charts much? Do you get much insight once you've put the episode out over, like, why it works, why it didn't work, that sort of thing?
Aaron Francis:Man, I'm so vibes based, but I barely ever look at those charts. I think I think the only time I've ever looked at one of those charts is to see, like, the first 32nd retention across several videos and realize, oh, you gotta get, like, you gotta get to the point faster. But beyond that, I don't couldn't tell you the last time I looked at one of those charts and was like, ah, I lost a bunch of people in the middle of of this video. I wonder what I did here. And I'm not saying that that's a a good thing.
Aaron Francis:Like, that's not a good personality trait. I don't know if it's bad, but I'm not saying that it's good that I'm like, no. Don't look at the metrics vibes only. But that's how I operate. I think I could probably learn a lot by, like, going very data driven.
Aaron Francis:But, again, like, what do I wanna do with my life? I wanna have fun and make videos, and I don't wanna be beholden I don't wanna be beholden to metrics, but metrics are really important. And so how do you square that circle? Like, how do you combine those two things? I don't know.
Aaron Francis:That's that's tough. I definitely look at view counts and, like, what was the best video of my past 5 videos and what can I learn from the fact that this one popped off and this one didn't, I definitely look at that? But in terms of, like, I wonder when men 20 to 29 dropped off in this video, I'm like, I don't know. I'm sorry. I have no idea.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Okay. That's I guess, it works if you if you nail those, like, principles, you've got a story, got a nugget, execute on it. You can do you don't need to dig into all those. Yeah.
Aaron Francis:And I think almost the qualitative, the qualitative feedback is more interesting to me than the quantitative feedback Mhmm. Because I feel like, and the data scientists are gonna scream at me right now. I feel like the the qualitative feedback is an expression of the quantitative feedback. So let's say, like, I do a video and it does super well and people comment they like certain parts or certain things. That tells me, like, that tells me a lot in the comments of, like, what was good about this video?
Aaron Francis:What do individual people like? And I can probably extrapolate that to say if, you know, 500 people commented on this video and the most common things were 123, I bet the 200,000 people that watched the video feel pretty similar to the people that commented on the video. They just they didn't say anything. And likewise, if I do if I do a video that kinda bombs and people are like, hey, I don't why would I need this? Or I don't understand what you are talking about here.
Aaron Francis:That to me is an extrapolation of, like, what everyone else was thinking but didn't comment. And so I read every single comment, and I, like, I weigh those comments pretty heavily. I think a lot of people on YouTube are like, don't ever read the comments. Like, why? I I mean, yeah, sometimes people are mean, but again, like, I don't really care about that.
Aaron Francis:But, like, I read every single comment and it's like, hey, that person really like that person or these people really liked the humor or the pace or the examples or maybe they didn't like the examples, and that's helpful for the future.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. That makes total sense. And, also, like, this is something that you're spending so much of your life on. Like, if you just, like, make a video and then you get paid and you move on and it's like Yeah. Okay.
Jack Bridger:I feel like knowing that people liked the videos is is extremely
Aaron Francis:nice. And, like, I feel a certain, like, maybe responsibility is too big of a word, but I feel a certain, like, I feel a certain responsibility. We'll we'll just say it. To interact with the people that are interacting with me. Yep.
Aaron Francis:And it's I don't like I'm not Casey Neistat. I would love to be Casey Neistat, but I'm not. And so I'm not just, like, throwing videos over the wall and having 10,000,000 people watch it, and I don't stand a chance of, like, responding. Like, I'm just a little guy. Right?
Aaron Francis:And so when I put out a video, it's like, hey. Did you guys like it? I kinda wanna talk about it. Like, can you can you tell me if it was good or bad or, like, what your favorite part was? I feel like a proud mom.
Aaron Francis:I'm like, hey. Look at my son. He's he's doing great. Talk to me about it. And that feels like it engenders a lot more trust and a lot more, like, cohesion amongst, like, the audience or whatever.
Aaron Francis:Just like my my friends who happen to be on YouTube.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. And may end up, buying a large enterprise database contract.
Aaron Francis:Exactly. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's another, like, that's another point that if you're running a a a dev tools YouTube channel, be an individual or be a collection of individuals.
Aaron Francis:Don't be a nameless, faceless corporate blob because nobody nobody cares about corporate blobs, and nobody has affectionate feelings towards corporate blobs. But if your corporate channel is, you know, for the sake of redundancy and, like, future proofness, if your corporate channel is 2 or 3 or 4 people, that's great. Let them be people. Like, let let the audience get to know the characters of the show. Right?
Aaron Francis:We we love we love Jim and Pam, and we, like, love to get to know the characters of the show. We follow them for 10 seasons on The Office, and it's like, yeah, I like those individual people. And it's the same deal for for corporate YouTube channels. It kind of has to be an individual, if not a small collection of individuals.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. So which companies have the most corporate blob now, Jay?
Aaron Francis:You just look up any of them. All of them.
Jack Bridger:All of them.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. All of them except, you know, just recently deceased planet scale. Yeah. So yeah. Except for them.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. I I will ask you though if, okay. So I've got 2 more questions. We've gone way over, but this is so I this is longer than usual. Listeners, forgive me.
Jack Bridger:I'm nerding out here. I'm enjoying listening, asking questions about
Aaron Francis:still listening, you're enjoying it. So that's on that's on you. You can pause it at any moment.
Jack Bridger:Okay. So, one question I have is what channels should people go to to get, like, inspiration beyond PlanetScale? So
Aaron Francis:Mhmm.
Jack Bridger:For other dev tools that you think are doing, like, really well with their YouTube strategy.
Aaron Francis:Goodness. That's a hard question
Jack Bridger:to answer. They're all numb.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. There there are there are good ones, of course. I think if you're looking if you're looking for inspiration, look outside of the dev tools niche. And so look at, other niches that have this figured out and have had it figured out for a long time, and that would include construction, woodworking, furniture making.
Jack Bridger:Lawn mowing.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. I mean, seriously.
Jack Bridger:Since you're saying that, I just I get so many lawn mowing videos.
Aaron Francis:It's like the the before and after if we mowed this old woman's lawn for her for free. It's like, okay. You're not gonna do that, but there's something that you can learn there. And I think watching YouTube strictly for learning how to do YouTube is interesting. You will get down a rabbit hole of the same ideas, the same techniques, the same how to edit your video like Mr.
Aaron Francis:Beast. If you go on YouTube with the explicit goal of learning how to YouTube, you're gonna get fed a lot of videos about Mr. Beast and Casey Neistat. And, like, some of that meta learning is interesting. I think more importantly, you need to develop your own taste.
Aaron Francis:And developing your own taste can be watching construction videos and then watching tunnel digging videos and then watching videos about outer space. And, like, where are these examples coming from? These are the videos that I watch. Like, this is that's my YouTube universe, and it has recently started getting into, like, how to do one man cinematography because, like, I'm here by myself, and I gotta figure out how to do videos. And you take that, like, you take the expertise of people who are just absolutely crushing it, and then you come back to this poor decrepit dev tools space on YouTube, and you're a genius.
Aaron Francis:Right? So you can just, like, you can blow everyone away because everyone is doing webinars that are an hour and 40 minutes long and just throwing them on YouTube without even a custom thumbnail or anything. And so you just, like, learn 2 percent of what the other niches have already figured out, and you just do that by consuming and developing your taste. And so as you're watching things that are entertaining to you, so you're, like, actively cooking dinner and enjoying a construction show, take note of, like, oh, they're, like, they're really funny or they're really sincere or they're really sarcastic or, like, they go real into detail or they gloss over a lot of details and, like, just absorb that into your being and then translate it into your area of expertise.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Yeah. That's that's really, really awesome, actually. So, yeah, setting the bar even higher. Like, not looking just
Aaron Francis:Yeah. For sure. Definitely.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Okay. So I have, one question that we always ask, which is, do you have any kind of, like, one takeaway, for founders listening?
Aaron Francis:Yes. I think if you want to be on YouTube, and I think most people listening should want to be on YouTube, it is a distribution mechanism unlike anything ever seen before. If you want to be on YouTube, think about how you can go broad and how you can go pop education. Education, I think, should be your goal, and you should wrap that in something that is popular, something that is exciting, something that is interesting. How can you use your dev tool to go super broad to solve some problem?
Aaron Francis:And then they find out about your company as a as a second order effect. That would be that would be my charge to people who are trying to scale dev tools is like, what's the most interesting thing your underlying infrastructure or underlying tool can do? Make a video about that.
Jack Bridger:That's, yeah. Fantastic. I yeah. I'm really am. I'm I'm gonna be trying the stuff, for my own things and yeah.
Jack Bridger:Great. And one question, one of our listeners, suggested that I should ask because we did it once, and it was apparently good. It's like, are there any dev tools that you're excited about at the moment?
Aaron Francis:Yeah. I mean, there there are there are a lot. I am, you know, I'm coming out of a hosted MySQL world, and so I am now, like, unleashed and can start exploring some of the other database, you know, startups or companies, and there are a lot. There are a lot of good ones. In the SQLite world, Terso seems really awesome to me.
Aaron Francis:And so I'm I'm playing around with, like, I'm playing around with these database tools. Cloudflare has their workers, which I have been, you know, on this outskirts of playing with those, but I come from like a Laravel slash PHP world, and they don't have, you know, PHP on workers. But there are ways to integrate over the API with Laravel, you know, running stuff. And so, like, those kinds of things I'm very excited about. I am probably most excited about my newfound freedom to explore these database companies.
Jack Bridger:Okay. Amazing. Amazing. And then, well, thank you so much, Aaron, for joining. And, if people want to make videos and they Mhmm.
Jack Bridger:Can they get in touch with you?
Aaron Francis:Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So if you want to have us help your company, so me and my friend Steve, who is a proper video producer, we've started a studio called Try Hard Studios because we try really hard. So you can find that at tryhardstudios.com.
Aaron Francis:If you're an individual looking to, like, how do I level up my screencasting videos? Screencasting.com is where I teach that. And if you're just wanting to hang out and waste a bunch of time, twitter.com/arondefrances. That's where I am all the time when I should be working.
Jack Bridger:Amazing. Adah, let Aaron know that you heard on scaling DevTools so that we can get him back on again.
Aaron Francis:I would love that. That would be awesome. Yeah.
Jack Bridger:Yeah. Oh, awesome. Thanks everyone for listening and we'll see you again next week.
Listen to Scaling DevTools using one of many popular podcasting apps or directories.
